People would milk the system as much as they could, only to become the most popular library, only to get most of the "pie".
I guess Python/JS devs would get the most of it. Because their ecosystem is most fragmented. C++ or assembly devs? Nothing.
I don't think this idea is thought out. Money corrupts things.
There already is a "market" for stars. But if stars would indicate how much someone earns, it would be morbid. Well, in some way, I guess they already do, but it's linked at least indirectly.
How is it insane to only welcome people to a community that act respectful towards other people? That seems like a really good way to build a solid community.
That's not the case with the Gleam community though. Unless you're willing to adopt their opinions / values / moral stance on certain issues, you won't be treated respectfully - you will be ostracized for having an unpopular opinion or view on a given issue.
It is a totally insane way to run a project, and it's quite obvious the Gleam community is run by persons who are unable to handle people with opinions that differ from their own.
It does sound like a great way to build an echo chamber.
Ah yes, because not automatically supporting grifts like the BLM movement (which enriched the founders and did very little for the black community at large), makes someone a racist - I totally forgot!
Black Lives Matter is objectively not a grift. There is an argument to be made regarding "BLM Global Network", but calling them BLM is like saying all vegans support PETA.
Regardless, that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You don't have to change your beliefs to be part of the Gleam community, you just have to not be an asshole about them. If you're the kind of person that starts an argument any time BLM is mentioned, is it understandable why they wouldn't want you in their community?
There we go again. I think that you people would gain if you'd read what does it mean if something is objective and also the meaning of "subjective". Either you live in social bubbles or you're intentionally ignoring anything that's not in line with your ideology. I'm actually not surprised this is the case, since you're not allowing people outside of your bubbles in your community spaces. You cherish diversity, yet in reality you're the most ideologically closed social group that I know. Letting people in only if it's easy for you is very far from "welcoming".
You're accusing the parent of being an asshole, yet you dismiss his arguments based on false "objectivity". And because of your "objectivity", which is clearly subjective, you reinforce the argument that parent is not welcome in your community. How is this welcoming?
I explicitly did not call them an asshole, it was very much conditional on the way they choose to act inside these communities.
Regarding your accusation of subjectivity, I was addressing the misnomer that BLMGN is equivalent to the BLM movement - it's not. BLMGN might be a grift for all I know, but that cannot be used to call the entire BLM movement a grift. By definition a grifter is aware that they're grifting, do you believe that every BLM protest was organised by someone looking to make a profit? If not, BLM is objectively not a grift.
On the topic of being 'welcoming', clearly you don't understand the paradox of tolerance. Is it intolerant to exclude Nazis from a community? Obviously not, despite what the Nazis would claim, because Nazis make the communities they're involved in intolerable to anyone that's not a Nazi.
Thus, if you want to create an inclusive community, you have no choice but to exclude certain groups of people.
It's actually pretty simple to figure out which groups should be excluded: - Transphobes are constantly imposing their beliefs on trans people, trans people want equal rights. - White supremacists are constantly imposing their beliefs on black people, black people want equal rights. - Homophobes are constantly imposing their beliefs on gay people, gay people want equal rights. Do I need to continue?
To be clear, I barely interact with these "safe" communities - pretty much only when I need some help with my code. It's very easy to hide your beliefs if you want to participate, I could be a raging homophobe for all they know because I've never talked about gay people in there.
You say the they don't tolerate anyone outside their bubbles, but anyone is free to join and start getting support, there's no purity test. So do you mean they don't tolerate people questioning trans rights in a support channel? Because obviously they don't. If you want to start an argument there are plenty of appropriate places to do so, places that don't make people feel unsafe.
> What happens if you don't use the correct pronouns someone has declared for themselves? Is this not "imposing beliefs" on other people?
That's a false equivalence. All that's asked of you is to not misgender or deadname them, whereas transphobes are actively making it impossible for trans people to freely live as themselves.
It's also about not being a dickhead. If you met an autistic kid, and were told that he becomes incredibly distressed if you don't refer to him as 'Mr.', would you at least make an effort to call him that?
It doesn't matter how ridiculous you think calling a kid 'Mr.' is, he isn't imposing his beliefs on you by asking that of you.
If someone decides that their community will be a safe place for the kid to be, then of course they're justified in removing you if you refuse to call him 'Mr'.
Regardless of whether you believe trans people are mentally ill or just a normal part of humanity, not misgendering them is a simple courtesy to avoid causing a fellow human distress.
> "Feeling unsafe" is an outstanding weapon to crush behavior one doesn't like. Doesn't even require logic: it's literally a feeling.
How is this relevant to a programming language community? Who, in your scenario, is doing the crushing?
For the sake of simplicity, and to detach our feelings from this subject, let's assume that Ω-GN is a grift. Ω is a superset of Ω-GN. We cannot conclude that Ω is a grift solely because a subset (Ω-GN) is a grift. However, can we objectively say that Ω is not a grift just because there are some instances within Ω that are not grifts? Clearly, there are also instances within Ω that are grifts, since Ω-GN (a subset of Ω) is a grift by our assumption. Therefore, the existence of both grift and non-grift instances in Ω means we cannot categorically label Ω as either a grift or not a grift based solely on its subsets.
Yet you say that objectively it's not a grift because there is at least 1 instance of a non-grifting event in Ω. Even Kenneth Copeland _sometimes_ is right about _something_, can we say that objectively he's not a liar because _there was at least 1 instance of him telling the truth_? I think not.
Also, you people use this word, "nazi", but do you actually know what are Nazis? German National-Socialists. Even the name "NAZI" is taken from German language. So if you ask me "what is wrong with disliking nazis", yet you use some artificial and historically wrong definition of a nazi, then I'm telling you that the problem is with you people using "nazis" for others who disagrees with you. I probably am a Nazi in someone's eyes, because I'm opposed to trans-women participating in women's sports. In reality, my grandfather fought with the actual nazis which existed in real world, not in your imagination.
> Thus, if you want to create an inclusive community, you have no choice but to exclude certain groups of people.
Yeah, this is how I understand it as well. People want easy inclusivity, a mono-themed style of thinking, and diversity only within their own strictly defined boundaries. I interpret this as a contradiction and a lie: diversity among selected groups is not true diversity, and inclusivity limited to chosen pools is not genuine inclusivity. For me there is absolutely no difference between this and a situation where whites stick to whites, blacks stick to blacks, etc.
If something is marked as "LGBTQ+ friendly" then I'm all fine -- it's very understandable and I know what I'm dealing with. But if something is "inclusive" then I automatically know I'm not in the target audience, because the sole definition of "include" is already loaded. The language already contains words with different meanings. For me this means "we're so closed, we even use our own definition of 'inclusion' to not think about the outside world".
You seem quite passionate about this, which I find difficult to understand, maybe because I’m not as deeply immersed in American political culture as you (I had no idea people see BLM as an organisation rather than a movement / ethical stance) but I’m curious: Is it really just about language for you?
If the section was phrased as “We are LGBTQ+ friendly and do not tolerate transphobia or racism” that would feel more welcoming to you?
At the end of the day, it’s a programming language community. If you join and ask a question about how to call functions from Erlang, you’ll definitely get an answer. If you join and bring up your feelings about trans women in sports you’ll most likely be asked to stop or removed, as it’s just not a space where that kind of discussion is welcome.
> If the section was phrased as “We are LGBTQ+ friendly and do not tolerate transphobia or racism” that would feel more welcoming to you?
It's very, very easy to turn ideas into "racism" or "transphobia."
> it’s just not a space where that kind of discussion is welcome
These folks believe no space exists where this type of discussion is welcome and will deny participation to anyone not towing the party line in all forums - not just their little fiefdom.
It's not American, it's global. I'm not American, yet I'm judged by the these political culture quirks. The creator of Gleam is not American, he's from UK. Trans-movements aren't American, they're in my country too, and I'm interested somewhat in the politics of my own country. Also parent posts differentiated between BLM and BLM-GN, where one is a "movement", and the other one is supposedly a marxist organization, so I guess there's a difference too.
> Is it really just about language for you?
No. I mean, I'm not a murderer. I'm not a thief. I only do to others what I want others to do to me. I don't want to be treated differently because of my race or my gender, therefore I don't want to treat others differently because of those things. Yet, I actually am treated differently because of it; and it's mostly by those people who "fight racism" and "fight transphobia". Who are virtue signalling left and right how tolerant they are. How inclusive they are. When a black director says "I'll never hire a white main actor" then it's OK. But when I point out he said it, then I'm a racist -- this is how it works today. So:
> If the section was phrased as “We are LGBTQ+ friendly and do not tolerate transphobia or racism” that would feel more welcoming to you?
No, because it's too easy to frame my views as transphobic or racist, like I've written in my previous paragraph. And this is the language part. Using "master" branch in git today is a manifestation of racism. People fork "rubocop" projects because it has a "cop" in the name; and they want to defund the police. I think that police is needed because without it the law wouldn't exist? Then I'm a nazi. When I'm asking questions about whether someone's wheels were spinning during sudden acceleration, I'm being called an ICE-lover.
You might see me being passionate, but I'm merely a product of current political polarity.
> If you join and bring up your feelings about trans women in sports you’ll most likely be asked to stop or removed, as it’s just not a space where that kind of discussion is welcome. But why should it be?
No, I will be removed only when I say that it's not OK. I will be upvoted when I'll say that it's OK. But more generally, that's a good question, but I don't know the answer, ask Ipil, he sees the necessity. I do think that there's no reason why it should be a place for discussion of trans-rights and racism and I wouldn't want to discuss it there (not even here to be honest). So why it's being manifested on the main page, before the language tour and before the newsletter, since it's clearly not a place for these topics?
Take it to mean a literal straight out of 1942 National Socialist if you like, it doesn't change what I was trying to convey.
If you want a historical comparison to BLM, how about the suffragettes. I can guarantee that there were grifters looking to make money off the movement, which would be a subset of it, but I think it's quite fair to say the suffragettes were objectively not grifters.
I would also say that Christianity is objectively not a grift, despite the fact that there are many grifters within the faith. If the core ideas of a movement are spread by people that truly believe in them, and are not controlled by any individual, then how exactly could it qualify as a grift?
Legitimately, I don't understand how a decentralised set of ideas could be a grift. Do you have any examples?
"Diversity only within their own strictly defined boundaries" is exactly right, but you don't seem to understand that those boundaries are what let's diversity thrive. Without rules against bigotry, LGBTQ+ people are far less able to express themselves due to the increased scrutiny from people that refuse to accept them.
When there are people in a community that denegrate others for being themselves it creates a toxic environment where being different makes you a target, so everyone either falls in line or leaves.
It's really funny, because that's how I portray inclusive people. They're nice until they bring friends. And later friends require changing the vocabulary and I don't even know how to communicate with them. But I'm not calling them soviets.
I've literally said in my previous message that in my opinion it can't be said that BLM is a grift, and can't be said that it is not a grift. It's not even about a grift, it's about objective statements.
I guess we have to agree to disagree, since it's apparent we're not even reading ourselves properly.
By the way, one date of importance when it comes to nazism for me is 1st September 1939. German nazis marked a whole country for extermination, but you're having a good time by comparing children with computers from a Reddit story to nazis.
I don't think Gleam has a problem if Kenneth Copeland is using their software, either. The problem arises when you mistreat community members in community spaces; I can't speak for DRH, but I'm reasonably sure if someone waltzed into SQLite's forum denigrating the devs and their religious beliefs, there wouldn't be much hesitation in removing that person from said forum.
> I don't think Gleam has a problem if Kenneth Copeland is using their software, either.
I wouldn't be so sure. In leftist projects, there are countless of examples why someone is not welcome based on their personal beliefs, and because of this I'm cautiously suspicious about Gleam.
If I'm wrong then the Internet is a better place than I think it is, which would be a good thing. If I'm right, then at least I'll dodge another bullet. Either way I win I guess.
Are you planning to add "lessons" related to deployment? For example, using libbcc vs CO-RE?
reply