This sets such a dangerous precedent, and further emboldens those who contend that the Jewish influence in media and Industry (particularly in entertainment, Law, and Media) is absolute. And was portrayed by a John Stewart, himself a Jew, so poignantly [0] nearly 10 years ago--note how these two conflicts are still ongoing and ask yourself how we got here.
How this nation allows for the condemnation of the injustices of the Vietnam war, Afghanistan or Iraq under the premise of free speech but will not allow for those to oppose the vile acts unleashed by the IDF (an entirely different nations military) alone is why this should be condemned.
Say what you will about them voicing a poorly informed opinion if you must, but it ask yourself: should it lead to offers being revoked and if so what precedent does it set?
I get these are (often) the children of privilege and nepotism is what most have in common, but still, this is appalling: it's similar to what happened in Tokyo University during the student riots back in the late 60s during Vietnam, people are perplexed how they instilled such a conformist mindset in the abhorrent Japanese corporate culture, and blacklisting students was one of the main ways they did it.
I don't have a bias anymore, I was once pro-Palestinian after seeing the IDF use white phosphorus on children in Gaza but after withholding aid and the subsequent bombings during COVID in '21 I think somethings are rooted much deeper in the Human psyche and are beyond help when people are still willing to let people die for claims of the 'Holy Land,' you'd think that after so much death and despair they would have at least agreed to a ceasefire and allowed for aid to enter during a pandemic but were denied and then bombed. Even now I just see this as senseless violence and a waste of Human Life, but just like in Bucha there will be a narrative created about how this was warranted somehow.
>Say what you will about them voicing a poorly informed opinion if you must
how do you differentiate between poorly informed opinions and poorly formed morals ?
(in this specific case poorly informed opinion (if this is what it is) may lead to offer been revoked due to inability to perform research. sounds like a must for a law firm)
> in this specific case poorly informed opinion...
It's hard to not see the IDF as a barbarous relic of it's own collective trauma from the Holocaust at this point; I personally think they are just as appalling as the German Nazis themselves and the US enables and funds this for Geo-political strategy: I believe in free speech and feel that I can make this argument without impunity as it's based entirely from decades of continual atrocities against Palestinians and overt crimes against Humanity (withholding life critical aid in a pandemic), and international killing of aid workers/activists (flotilla) documented the use of banned munitions on children as they regard them as less than Human while creating an overt surveillance state and exports this tech to other nations to use to monitor their citizens etc... and is only possible because there exists a sort of exceptional situation for Israel, but is it really any different than how the CCP treats the Uhigyers? I don't, and I think both should be condemned for their actions in a Tribunal for Crimes against Humanity alongside Putin's Russia.
Except Israel gets to quell any dissent on the topic for fear of being regarded antisemitic which ultimately is used to justify their actions; just so it's clear I find the actions of Hamas reprehensible and vile, but that 'party for Peace' was only a couple of miles from the Gaza border; tell me under what possible distorted form of reality can this be justified? It was noted that the sound of the music was likely heard in Gaza it was so close.
This is pretty much the conclusion that a Canadian UN peace keeping intern working in Palestine and Israel relations came to when we worked together on an unrelated job: that the victims often become the abuser and Gaza is a perfect example of how that has occurred in my Life-time. And that is what is taking place once more seeing innocent lives lost for the actions of a political extreme
minority; it is these kind of actions that have made me an anarchist in the end, as it is always normal people who suffer most in these systems.
That problem in-lies that a forced consensus is made: by not supporting the IDF/Israel inhumane actions, let alone claiming to be Pro-Palestine, it's made into a false equivalence of thinking you are are pro-Hamas, which is only possible if the overt censorship that I'm worried about is prevalent.
If a Law firm cannot distinguish that its a more nuanced matter, but will instead crumble under such pressure one has to ask 'how come' and 'why' doesn't it? I think this a matter of censorship, with much more dire underlying issues, more than it is anything else.
> tell me under what possible distorted form of reality can this be justified? It was noted that the sound of the music was likely heard in Gaza it was so close
Right. The loud noise and improperly dressed young girls angered Hamas so they went out on kill and rape rampage, makes sense.
We could track reprisals against reprisals against reprisals all day long without unraveling anything. But it's dangerously misleading to suggest that this is purely about what happened in the 1940s. Israel has to deal with the fact that this attack has a lot of precedent.
There is no fair analysis of Israel's actions which does not take this into account. They have very good reason to think that without the actions you're condemning that attacks like this one would occur every day.
the funny part, that you wrote a very long post that tries to be "nuanced", yet, you are missing so many nuances and facts that it's not too different from average headline of "israel performs genocide"
i just saw fascinating thread on /r/politics when somebody, obviously arab, from one of the poorer countries probably tried to explain to other people what is middle east and how it clicks. he was blamed for trying to gaslight and writing funfiction.
unless you live this world day to day, from inside, i am not sure if you can form an informed opinion because so many things are lost. so many nuances. so many day-to-day facts that even if they will appear in western media they will loose in process most of facts. even on freaken wikipedia list of terror acts in city where i lived misses like half of them. including the one on bus stop next to my school which served only kids.
i am not going to argue with you or try to point on all the things that you missed in your well thought out post. i did enough of it on kuro5hin. i mostly healed of "somebody is wrong on the internet".
time to concentrate on not crying for people on both side of conflict, for sake of my ukrainian wife. she had enough of crying of her own in last 2 years
Everybody has their own gaze with which they judge what they see.
As someone who has been following world politics since young age and really would love to see this seemingly everlasting conflict resolved and human suffering on all sides reduced, my prefered solution would be one where the Palestinians are alive, free and lost all incentives to carry out terrorist attacks so that both sides in this conflict can finally attempt to embrace what they have in common instead of fighting each other.
My worry is that this is not something a big part of Israel even wants to attempt — or maybe they lost the faith that this could ever be possible — so they want the Palestinians to just be gone.
The problem with wanting a group of people to "just be gone" is that there is no ethical, no clean way of doing it and the act of even attempting it would produce new problems of unspeakable proportions.
If you talk about the small things, the terrorist attacks that didn't make it to wikipedia, I am sure your Palestinian counterpart would talk about similar things from their daily lives that make living hell for them or collective punishment they received just for being part of a certain ethnic group. You might mention a relative that got killed in a terrorist attack, they might mention a relative that got killed in a raid that happened before or after.
And both of you are of course right and anybody not from the region (like me) would have a hard time to make something of that competition of suffering. But I don't think that this competition is going to solve anything and winning it isn't worth it.
Without having people on both sides rising above and extending an olive branch this won't end well. Granted, it still might end, but I don't feel well to see the people who had to experience the unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust to solve their problems in a way that results in a group of other people "being gone". This would remain a stain on Israel forever, just like the Holocaust should remain a stain on Austria and Germany forever.
> My worry is that this is not something a big part of Israel even wants to attempt — or maybe they lost the faith that this could ever be possible — so they want the Palestinians to just be gone.
Which sides wants the other "gone" ? If the Gazans had the power to do it I have no doubt they would kill hundreds of thousands of Israelis. I don't understand how you can even deny it. The only thing stopping them, for now, is lack of ability.
There are countrless statements, which you also see paraded in other countries for that matter, that want the destruction of Israel. Official voices included.
From the river to the sea... is not just another lifestyle position. I would argue that you might not have followed the conflict too closely.
Gaza did get more autonomy. They even had the chance to found their own country. They responded with war and I don't think there can be an alternative "history" to that.
>My worry is that this is not something a big part of Israel even wants to attempt — or maybe they lost the faith that this could ever be possible — so they want the Palestinians to just be gone
you are kind wrong. majority of population realists. everybody knows that palestinians don't go anywhere. there are no majority opinion in favor of "genociding" palestinians. majority of population was excited to hear news about potential normalization with saudia and that this process may also force some kind of normalization of palestinian authority. i don't even know what you mean by "group of other people been gone", because it's most definitely not mainstream in israel. and not near mainstream. it's fringe position in israeli society
people are tiered in israel. people want for all this to be over. people want normalization with pa. with lebanon. not sure about syria though.
>I am sure your Palestinian counterpart would talk about similar things from their daily lives that make living hell for them or collective punishment they received just for being part of a certain ethnic group
everything that happens anywhere tend to be widely publicized. "collective punishment" is a good way to take very complicated situation that developed over last 100 years and reduce is to two words. kudos
and my points wasn't about competition of suffering. my point was that if you don't live there you don't really get to understand where people on both sides stand and what exactly happens because press doesn't really cover it to depth
> you are kind wrong. majority of population realists.
I have no doubt about that. If you read my post I did not use the word majority anywhere. I used "a big part". Now the obvious question is: how big is "big" from the perspective of such a conflict?
I don't think it needs many hardliners on both sides to keep the thing going indefinitely. It then just needs many who shrug and let them do it.
> collective punishment" is a good way to take very complicated situation that developed over last 100 years and reduce is to two words. kudos
Discussing a topic always entails reducing things into a shorter, abstract form, otherwise you cannot discuss them at all. We make maps of the landscape in order to orient, carrying around the landscape in 1:1 turned out to be impractical.
So you can (and should) reason against my choice of abstraction and tell me why you think it is a poor choice that doesn't describe the reality on the ground (and I might learn something from your answer). But demanding that I can't use abstraction at all and demanding the impossible is less productive.
I chose the abstraction of "collective punishment" very carefully. The Gaza strip is a densely populated area with a big fraction of the population being kids below a age where they could even understand what is going on. Those kids have been born into that conflict and they did nothing wrong — just like Israeli kids that got slaughtered by Hamas did nothing wrong.
Collective punishments like the terrorist attacks of Hamas or Israel turning off the water and electricity for the Gaza strip or bombing their homes (be it as collateral or on purpose) is a good way to create the next wave of violence and the next generation of terrorists.
I get that the reality on the ground is important. But the reality on the ground was also what perpetuated the Thirty Years' War — which is why I proposed taking a step back and out of it is the only way to put a stop to it. The complexities violent conflicts produce are the reason why it is hard to end them. Historically without a rule of law you could have cycles of revenge and counter-revenge going on for centuries. But what happens if we are not talking about two enemy clans, but a state and a people? If you ask me, the state has to step up and attempt the impossible: Protecting the rule of law and human rights while still protecting it's people from the violence of asymmetric warfare.
I have enough friends that live in the area (mostly on the Israeli side tho) to have an idea what this conflict can entail on a personal level, but that doesn't mean one cannot have a more systemic look at things.
majority... big part.. small part... fringe minority.. how big is small and how small is big. gotcha.
this awkward moment when /r/worldnews has a more nuanced discussion using historical facts and not newspaper clippings.
idf speaker btw just said that there is a team analyzing uploaded videos using face recognition software (this is topical, right ?) in order to find all those who participated and to punish them. lets add extrajudicial killings (did I name it right ?) to list of things that complicate this conflict.
This sets such a dangerous precedent, and further emboldens those who contend that the Jewish influence in media and Industry (particularly in entertainment, Law, and Media) is absolute. And was portrayed by a John Stewart, himself a Jew, so poignantly [0] nearly 10 years ago--note how these two conflicts are still ongoing and ask yourself how we got here.
How this nation allows for the condemnation of the injustices of the Vietnam war, Afghanistan or Iraq under the premise of free speech but will not allow for those to oppose the vile acts unleashed by the IDF (an entirely different nations military) alone is why this should be condemned.
Say what you will about them voicing a poorly informed opinion if you must, but it ask yourself: should it lead to offers being revoked and if so what precedent does it set?
I get these are (often) the children of privilege and nepotism is what most have in common, but still, this is appalling: it's similar to what happened in Tokyo University during the student riots back in the late 60s during Vietnam, people are perplexed how they instilled such a conformist mindset in the abhorrent Japanese corporate culture, and blacklisting students was one of the main ways they did it.
I don't have a bias anymore, I was once pro-Palestinian after seeing the IDF use white phosphorus on children in Gaza but after withholding aid and the subsequent bombings during COVID in '21 I think somethings are rooted much deeper in the Human psyche and are beyond help when people are still willing to let people die for claims of the 'Holy Land,' you'd think that after so much death and despair they would have at least agreed to a ceasefire and allowed for aid to enter during a pandemic but were denied and then bombed. Even now I just see this as senseless violence and a waste of Human Life, but just like in Bucha there will be a narrative created about how this was warranted somehow.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrlUzkd8Z8g